Welcome to Season Two! To kick things off, JP chats to one of the great pioneers of Positive Leadership: Dr. Barbara Fredrickson. Want to know how the science of ‘love’ can help us connect to our teams? Or why speaking to strangers creates so much positive energy? Listen to this special episode now to continue learning with JP.
Subscribe now to JP's free monthly newsletter "Positive Leadership and You" on LinkedIn to transform your positive impact today: https://www.linkedin.com/newsletters/positive-leadership-you-6970390170017669121/
Welcome to Season Two! To kick things off, JP chats to one of the great pioneers of Positive Leadership: Dr. Barbara Fredrickson. Want to know how the science of ‘love’ can help us connect to our teams? Or why speaking to strangers creates so much positive energy? Listen to this special episode now to continue learning with JP.
Subscribe now to JP's free monthly newsletter "Positive Leadership and You" on LinkedIn to transform your positive impact today: https://www.linkedin.com/newsletters/positive-leadership-you-6970390170017669121/
JEAN-PHILIPPE: Hello and welcome to the Positive Leadership Podcast. This is JP, and I'm excited. This is the start of season 2. Today, I'm very excited to have someone who has been inspiring the foundational promise for Positive Leadership. It's my pleasure to have Dr. Barbara Fredrickson, the Kenan Distinguished Professor of the Department of Psychology and Neuroscience at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Her books, Positivity and Love 2.0, have been translated into dozens of languages. She also served as President of the International Positive Psychology Association and the Society for Effective Science. She lives in North Carolina with her husband and two sons. And I must tell you, her work has really informed my practice and thinking about Positive Leadership. Barbara, thank you so much for joining me today.
BARBARA: Oh, it's great to be here, JP. Thanks for the invitation.
JEAN-PHILIPPE: Let's start with positivity and the science of positivity. Can you explain to all the listeners what is positivity, what it's all about, and why does it matter?
BARBARA: Right. Positivity is much more than positive thinking. I come at this as a scientist who studies emotions, and emotions are really just momentary, fleeting phenomena. And for so long, psychology just thought, "Oh those must be trivial. We should just focus on thinking and behavior." And what the field missed until we started looking at emotions more scientifically and rigorously is that they do two things. Positive emotions, in particular – well, all emotions negative and positive – are fundamentally mind and body experiences. They change what's going on in our bodies and our minds. They're not just thoughts that roll through our minds. Where they differ is negative emotions really mobilize us, kind of fight or flight, in a moment to engage in an action that might have been useful for our human ancestors.
Positive emotions are useful in a different way. They fundamentally change the way the human brain takes in information. They widen our perspective, opening us up so that we see more, we see the big picture, more readily. And over time, little by little, having more moments of that opened awareness functions as a nutrient for growth, helping us to become more resourceful, more resilient, better connected socially in ways that contributed to our human ancestors' survival as well, because having more resources at your disposal is what helps people get through tough times. So, positive emotions are not just frivolous. They're really essential to helping us continue on trajectories of growth throughout our whole lives.
JEAN-PHILIPPE: You're so clear and so precise in the way you talk a bit about it both in your books and obviously in your discussion. You know, certainly it's so critical in our lives to understand the way we just don't fight and flight, right, as we used to say, when it comes to our ancestors' behaviors on negative emotions. But the way we can really nurture, develop, in a way, potentially master these positive emotions, you know, day-to-day connection. So, this is something I'd love to explore more with you and why they're potentially so big, obviously, with every one of us on this podcast and beyond all of us.
So, you know, when I started both reading your books and a few others, I was really interested in the linkage between physical health and positivity. So, can you talk more about that link and the impact positivity can have actually on our bodies as well as our minds? You started talking about widening our perspective, seeing the bigger perspective. Can you expand more on the body, physically, what it means on the brains as well and physical health of the people?
BARBARA: Yeah. Well, there's actually kind of two routes of influence. One is that our positive emotions – and they don't need to be, like, you know, the most intense or prolonged; even just mild, everyday positive emotions, like taking a moment to figure out in your life what is a blessing to be cherished or to be grateful for, or, you know, just noticing the beauty of the natural world, or the smile on a child. I mean, they can be really small and mild positive emotions. Even if they don't last, those kinds of moments are very useful at helping us reset and recover after we're experiencing negative emotions.
So, we know that negative emotions elevate our heart rate and our blood pressure, and if we get too stuck in that state, ruminating and negative emotion is lasting longer than it's useful. I certainly don't want to convey that negative emotions are unhelpful. They're very helpful. We just don't want them to be defining our whole day. And positive emotions help to undo or reset us after that. They're really a key ingredient in being resilient and being able to bounce back.
So, one way positive emotions support our health is by cutting short the duration of the negative effects of negative emotions. Another way, though, is that they have their own healthful physiological properties. They're not as strong and capturing our awareness as negative emotions, like when you feel your heart pounding or whatever, but with positive emotions, there are, depending on what it is, there are subtle cascades of neuropeptides through the body and changes in the very rhythms of our heart rate in ways that create more flexibility in the cardiovascular system. So, there are, you know, effects that are both related to the physiological functioning with the positive emotions.
The other way, though... There's a third way. I said two; now there's three! The third way is that, when we're feeling positive emotions, we're more interested in being physically active, in eating healthy food, in... You know, so positive emotions support positive health behaviors as well. And it's kind of a positive opposite of when you're feeling down is when you want to eat comfort food that's not so healthy or people who use tobacco are inspired to smoke to cope with that. So, people behave healthier, their bodies are physiologically doing more healthy things, and we're kind of cutting short the impact of our negative emotions. So, we, you know, we really should care about the emotional quality of our day, and it's not just like the weather. It doesn't just happen to us. We actually have a whole lot more say about what we feel and when than we give ourselves credit for sometimes.
JEAN-PHILIPPE: Yeah, that's certainly something for us to talk more about in a few minutes. A couple of question as well. On the way, we can become more our own masters of our positive emotions as opposed to the victim just of negative moments in our life. So, we will come back to that.
But just building on this question, this dialogue, you know, you made a clear distinction in your books as well on the fact that what we practice has to be heartfelt positivity. Otherwise, it could be as damaging physically as a negative emotion. And you talk particularly about sincerity, right? Being very sincere in what you do. And there's something I've been talking about in a couple of podcasts: smiling. The smile, right? The human smile. And, as we used to say, you know, a smile can really change the outlook. It can change a lot of things in people connections, but this is not always the case. So, can you share more what's behind a real smile versus maybe an insincere smile?
BARBARA: Yeah. It's... I mean, one of the things that is really vital to notice within our emotional lives, especially when it comes to positive emotions, is that, you know, we can move the muscles on our face and pose a smile. We do it all the time when we're asked to take a picture. But there's a difference between that posed smile and the one that just kind of bubbles up naturally based on a contextual cue that makes us feel energized and alive or upbeat.
And we sometimes think we're really good at just putting out the signal that we're feeling positive, and, you know, it doesn't matter whether I really feel it on the inside or not. Other people will think I'm feeling positive if I smile. Well, we're wrong when we think that. People are actually – all of us – are really good sincerity detectors, and it's not always something we can put our finger on consciously. Our ability to detect another person's sincerity really depends on being face-to-face, making eye contact.
When we do that, we subtly mimic what the other person is expressing. And if the other person is expressing an insincere positivity, kind of a manipulative tone, when we – very subtly; not necessarily even deliberately – try that on for size on our own face and mimic it a little bit, it becomes not just something we're mimicking on our faces. It's a neural mimicry as well that ends up being a fully embodied mimicry, and that's what informs our gut that says, "This person isn't for me. This person is out there for themselves," you know? "That's not a friendly smile. That's a domineering smile or a manipulative smile or a totally fake smile," you know? So, when we have access to seeing other people's faces, we are able to pick up on those subtle cues of sincerity. The hard part is that we don't always have that access. You know, sometimes people are communicating their emotions through a letter or a text or a, you know, just a recording or something. Or, you know, over the Internet where eye contact isn't so great.
JEAN-PHILIPPE: Yeah, for sure. We'll get back to that, indeed, given the high density of video conferencing these days in our lives. I'm sure you have something to share there as well. Barbara, just expanding on that, of course, but also maybe opening a bit, if I may, on your personal story. Can you share actually what really made you to decide to work on this particular research, on positivity, and why you did that? Because this has been, like, a 30-years plus journey for you.
BARBARA: Well, it's been such a windfall in my life because I feel like I've learned a lot from this work. But that's not what drew me in. It's actually just a really geeky, science, nerd-type approach. I happened to be training in my field and graduate school and in my postdoc right when the science of psychology started paying attention to emotions again. I say again because at the very beginning of psychology in the late 1800s, there was a focus on emotions, and then there was a huge emphasis on behaviorism, which basically ruled out all thoughts and emotions as being capable of being studied scientifically. And that took decades to get over.
So, when I was in training in the 1980s, 1990s, emotion was having a renaissance, the science of emotions. But within that, all the focus was on negative emotions, and, you know, even the emotion of disgust had a whole set of researchers who were busy dissecting disgust. And it occurred to me that nobody was looking at the positive emotions. And I thought, you know, "We must have these for a reason. What's the, you know, evolutionary logic of positive emotions?" Because the same logic that was being used for negative emotions just didn't fit this idea that emotion sparks quick action to lead to a life-saving maneuver. Well, that's not what... That's not the backdrop for positive emotions, so that couldn't have been it.
And there was some really, I think, kind of superficial takes saying that, "Well, negative emotions are about human survival, and positive emotions are about human reproduction, and so that's why we have them." And that also just didn't ring true to me as a scientist because positive emotions occur in plenty of contexts outside of mating and child rearing. So, that just didn't explain why we would feel, you know, joy and excitement at a new idea or meeting a platonic friend.
So, it was really just a sheer intellectual puzzle that drew me in. But, you know, as I grew older and got to my own kind of midlife slump I'd say, realizing that I couldn't live off my youth anymore, I felt really lucky that the solutions to how I could revitalize my life were all piling up on my desk in terms of my research papers. So, you know, once I really started taking the ideas and putting them into practice in my own life, that's when I realized, oh, I need to share this with other people because it's been hugely useful for me.
JEAN-PHILIPPE: Wonderful, wonderful. And using some of your words and adding mine as well, we'd say positive emotion is not about human reproduction; it's about human flourishing. I'm allowing myself to add flourishing now, Barbara. And if we expand, if we can do that, you've been pretty open in one of your books about, you know, some of the tough times you had to go through yourself as a family, like many of us. You know, we have high times and tough times as well. And you talked about some challenging time with your, you know, with some surgery with your husband. Could you share the way, maybe more personally, you've been, in a way, using the science and all the work you've done and live it in your own life?
BARBARA: Right. Yeah. That was right when I was writing a chapter on resilience for Positivity is when, you know, my husband had a pretty routine surgery that went awry and landed him in the hospital with a, you know, life-threatening intestinal blockage. And, you know, it was like two weeks in the hospital unclear where things were going. So, that's a long stretch, and I knew that whatever I could bring to kind of change the setting in his hospital room might help a little bit. There were no windows, and so I thought, "Oh my gosh, we need to have some nature in here." So, I'm bringing in all the plants that I could and pictures of our boys and just trying to create a different environment that would allow, you know, him to go through what he had to go through with the uncertainty with some amount of comfort around.
And then, you know, friends from afar reached out. "What can I do?" And, you know, like, "Well, my husband likes Goldie Hawn movies. Can you get all the recordings of those?" And I had a chance to meet Goldie Hawn once, and I was so delighted to be able to share that with her that she mattered so much at that time. But that's a digression. And what I didn't realize, though, was that creating all... you know, focusing so much on how I could make his experience better, every night when I left the hospital, I was just crushed.
You know, I just would break down in tears on my drive home, and then I'd get home and my neighbors had dinner waiting for me on the porch. And, you know, people were busy taking care of me, and I was just so touched by how much our neighborhood and community just came together. You know, we had just moved there, so it was really just so touching. But I realized how much that, you know, I needed to be open to other people's assistance, other people's help. And I think I had this ‘I got to figure out how to do it on my own attitude’ before this happened. Then, I just realized there's, yeah, I'm busy taking care of someone, but I need to be open to people taking care of me and, you know, and just accepting help. And that was, it was really eye-opening to realize people weren't helping out of obligation. They were helping out of care and concern. And if you can't open yourself to that, then they're being frustrated and wanting to... Do you know what I mean?
So, it's not like it's a sign of weakness. It's a sign of giving, to let somebody give to you, because it's, you know, it's going to be reciprocated somewhere along the line, whether you're paying it forward or paying it back. And so, really being able to take in those small things that are gifts along the way and let those replenish me so that I could be restored to go back into the hospital the next day. So, there was a way in which I was learning to, you know, not go it alone in terms of my sources of replenishment.
JEAN-PHILIPPE: Yeah, thank you so much for sharing so openly, Barbara. I think it tells a lot about, again, the power of creating on one end those micro moments of joy, of love, with your husband in the hospital, and on the other hand, for yourself. Taking care of yourself by opening up to others as well so that they can actually help you when you need the most help. And I think I'm sure we're going to discuss more about Love and Love 2.0 in a few minutes because I think there was a lot of love in that story as well, all along and all across the hospital and beyond when you're coming back home.
You know, you've been really extremely detailed with flavor and color about positivity. And you said it's coming with 10 different types of positivity, you know: gratitude, joy, serenity, interest, hope, pride, amusement, inspiration, awe, and finally love. Now, when I looked at this list, I was surprised you did not include a word, and actually, you explain yourself in the book a bit, but I'd like you to share. The word that is missing is happiness.
And I happened to host a guest in this podcast, his name is Mo Gawdat. He's been the author of a best-selling book called, Solve for Happy, where Mo investigated deeply the happiness equation based on a very personal story about his loss of his son. And what he says, he says, "Happiness is that moment when you are contented, when you are peaceful, when you are okay with life as it is. When you are not rejecting life but accepting it as it is." So, I'm really interested in why, Barbara, you didn't think happiness makes the list of positivity.
BARBARA: Yeah. Well, I think it's in part because, as a scientist, I noticed that happiness is used for so many different aspects of wellbeing that it's easy for it to be one person says it and meaning one thing, and another person hears it and interprets it as another. And so, that, scientifically, is a loss of precision that is, you know, can be sometimes frustrating.
I don't think happiness doesn't exist. I think it does exist. But I reserve it for this overall judgment of life as a whole, not so much an emotional state that arises and dissipates like a wave on the ocean, just a few seconds. Happiness can actually be much more abiding and long-term in that it's reflecting that life is satisfying, that you feel like you have what you need to have good experiences more often than bad experiences. And so, it's kind of like satisfaction with life plus a good, steady diet of positive emotions. That's how, in my field, happiness is often defined. And what I didn't want to then turn around and also use happiness for these small moments. So, I just reserve it for the for the larger judgement of life as a whole.
What you just read as a quote of the definition of happiness, I would tend to use the word serenity for that. Serenity or contentment. That is just like, "Aah, things are just right the way they are. And, you know, I accept it, I cherish it, and here I am”. You know, that, I think, more precisely would be called serenity from, you know, the geeky perspective of an emotion scientist! I'm not saying that people need to change the words they use in daily life. But when you want to communicate scientifically with precision, you just can't use the same word for multiple different parts of the machine, you know?
JEAN-PHILIPPE: Makes a lot of sense, and I love, again, the way you are so precise in picking the words, Barbara, all the time. So, serenity maybe could be the new version of the book of Mo. Maybe we should have you and Mo having a good dialogue together on serenity versus happiness.
But just to finish on that question and going to the next one, let me show our listeners, well, Mo's equation, because Mo is actually an engineer himself as well. And so, he came up with, you know, in the book, with a way to resolve an equation. And his equation is about the perception of the events of your life versus your expectations of how life should behave, which I think is about mentally how you build expectations for all those micro moments in your life that you are talking about very often, I think, Barbara. And for some people – many of us, I would say – sometimes have an unrealistic expectation of life which can lead to sadness and negativity and, you know, and more negative emotions most of the time.
So, anyway, that was a moment shared between Mo and Barbara. Now, I'd like you, Barbara, to share some practical suggestions, because I know you've not only done research; you try to do some applied research so that people can use some of the tools, methodologies. And so, for listeners, I'd like you to talk about, you know, in the books, you talk about practicing gratitude, celebrating good news, practicing acts of kindness. Could you share what are your top two or three favorite tools that you use on a daily basis, almost as a routine, to get you into that positive emotion virtuous circle and cycle?
BARBARA: Right. I think sort of the overarching message of my book, Positivity, and in hindsight, I realized the reason I wrote it is to help people see the value in prioritizing positive emotions. I think, especially in Western culture, we just put achievement up on a pedestal, and we make a to-do list for our day, but we don't make a to-feel list, you know? We don't think of necessarily automatically organizing our day not just about what we can accomplish, but what we can feel.
And we have studied people who vary on this, and some of the people who organize their day around things that will also feel good – not, you know, sunup to sundown, but part of their day might be like, "Oh, I know I'm going to have a tough set of meetings, so I'm going to plan to work in a walk or plan to do a few yoga stretches” or something. That's what we call prioritizing positivity, and also that you're willing to put in work to create those events. Like, you know, planning a dinner party is a lot of work, but having the dinner party is a lot of fun. So, people who are kind of willing to put in the sweat equity to make those positive things happen, that's being high on this prioritizing positivity.
And that takes a lot of self-knowledge. It's like, "What are the things, what are the activities, hobbies, connections that bring me the most joy or engagement or serenity or fascination or awe? And how can I build those into my day?" So, I think the go-to thing I use is just thinking about, "Okay, what is my day going to have, and how can I kind of fuel myself with positivity and positive emotions to meet my day?"
And so, how that's going to play out is going to be a little different day-to-day and may be different for me than it would be for others because emotions are so individualized. They depend on what your expectations are and what your lens on taking in events of your day is. You know, you could look at something and see it as totally ordinary, or you could look at that same thing and think of it as a gift to be treasured. I mean, that's where the individual choice comes in. So, for me, that can be getting time in nature. I have rearranged my life so I can walk to work. And so, as I'm walking to work, I'm taking in the trees and sometimes practicing my love and kindness meditation while I'm walking and just having that nice 20-minute, you know, time that is, you know, nobody else is grabbing my attention right at that time. So, it's wonderful. And so, that's a clear one.
Another that is really so generative is just connecting with people. Every opportunity you have to, you know, even just acknowledge someone's presence by smiling and nodding as you pass each other, you know, or connecting with a service person or cashier or something, you know, and in contexts that are safe to do that, you know? It's not every context that works for creating those little micro moments of positive connection, but they do add up, and they do matter.
We've been studying what difference it makes if we just tell people, you know, "These moments of connectedness that you have with people you barely know actually contribute a lot to your day-to-day wellbeing. Go have more of those." You know, it's kind of, like, just getting people to see the value in that gets people to experiment more and be like, "Oh, I haven't been thinking that, you know, those people that aren't in my inner circle really matter that much to my happiness, but when I actually focus on that, that, you know, it uplifts my day." It also opens people up and makes them kinder, more humble.
We're also finding it makes people more spiritual, the kind of spiritual that is feeling like we're all in this together and there's kind of a universal human connection, that actually grows out of connecting with strangers, because, you know, if people are going to have a positive view of humanity, nobody has a relationship with humanity. They have relationships with strangers and people they barely know, and that's a stand-in for their views of humanity. So, when those go well, we think people are basically good and are worth protecting and cherishing.
So, that's sort of where our ethics come from is from, I think, kind of naturally – not necessarily top-down what you're told in school or church or, you know, through some public service announcement. Our ethics and our concern for others come out of our day-to-day connections. And so, you know things like the pandemic really cut us off from those kinds of connections, and that, I think, is a major risk that we all take by letting those go too easily.
JEAN-PHILIPPE: You know, they're great to hear the way you actually practice positivity, Barbara, because I mean, if I'm trying to summarize or solve it, it's not only being aware. Start with awareness, I guess, being conscious, being planful as well, and then really enjoying those moments you have created or you are seeking for during your days. And it could be different, and you mentioned some great examples of that. But unless you do all of that, you know, probably not going to increase your ratio of positivity versus negative emotion, the famed 3:1 ratio, that you've been also talking about.
I'd like to expand and come back more to the last attribute of your positivity palette, love, because clearly, you know... And it's actually, especially how we think about going beyond our families or relationships, you just started talking about that. And obviously, you've been very, very... I would say, you've gone very deep into the topic in your book, Love 2.0, and you've been clear saying this is not about the movie version of romantic love and your spouse and, you know, and the best friend you have in life. It can be the stranger you meet in the street or a whole community and the world.
So, I'd really like to understand what the science says about love, what you've found out through your research, and why, again, it matters so much to our health or wellbeing and for society itself.
BARBARA: Yeah, I think that love is another one of those words like happiness that means so many different things to different people, and I have a good friend in the field who read an early version of Love 2.0 and said, "Oh, I love all these ideas you have in here. Just don't call it love," you know, because, scientifically, it does have a more precise label; its positivity resonance. It's another way to say that it's the positive emotions that we collaboratively co-experience with others.
It's like those times when you share a laugh and your smile gets bigger because you see your friend's smile, and then that that feeling of warmth just kind of, you know, ping-pongs back and forth across a little longer than if you were feeling it alone. And those moments when positive emotions, any of them – joy, serenity, interest – kind of echo and reverberate between people, those seem to be much more impactful to people's health and wellbeing than the positive emotions we experience individually.
Now, I'm big introvert, so I like to have a lot of my positive emotions come individually. So, I'm not saying that those are chopped liver, but as social creatures, I mean, we're mammals. We have to realize that we need other people to survive. And so, our whole psychology and biology is sculpted to get us to prioritize connection and trusting relationships – not just with people in our inner circle, but people in our communities, more broadly. And so, those are moments where we really feel energized and uplifted. You know, even if you're an introvert, being connected with people is an uplifting experience.
I think, you know, there are some psychopathologies which kind of turn that off or turn it around, like social anxiety or depression, but for people who aren't battling those mental illnesses, positive connection is a huge uplifting, energizing experience. And what we found is that, you know, above and beyond the positive emotions you feel individually, these ones that you feel together with others contribute more to your resilience, to your mental health. They contribute to public health, we found out, because, as we interact with people we barely know, we become more concerned with others, more passionate, kinder.
And in the early months of the pandemic, we discovered that those tendencies to be kinder and more concerned with others translated into washing your hands more, wearing a face covering more, keeping social distance better. And so, all these behaviors that, you know, before we had vaccines, we really depended on crucially to limit the spread of the virus. So, the quality... And you know, kind of like it's ironic because social distancing means don't go near those people that you don't know, who aren't your people. But even from the distance or from behind a mask, the quality of our connections with people we don't know well matters because it keeps us being concerned. And when we get cut off from those connections, we become less concerned with others, more self-focused, and that's not good for maintaining public health.
And then, in terms of the physical health pieces, we've looked at positivity resonance in a couple different ways, and some through these what we call weak ties, these, you know, strangers and acquaintances, people you barely know. But we've also taken a deep dive into looking at married couples who have been married for decades, and how important are those moments when they share and co-experience positive emotions? And what we found is that we had a study where we brought couples who have been married for 15 or 35 years into the research laboratory, have a number of conversations with your spouse while we're, you know, videotaping and measuring physiological responses - heart rate, sweat gland activity - and we find that there's more biological synchrony when people share a positive emotion than when they share a negative emotion.
That surprises a lot of people. And I think it's because people are having more of a together moment when they're experiencing positive emotion, but whereas shared negative emotion, if you're having a fight with your partner, it's more about attack, defend, attack, defend. You're kind of going in cycles of who gets to yell and who gets to, you know, shield their face. You know, so it's not so much a togetherness kind of experience for shared negativity. But those moments, the number of seconds that a couple who's been asked to talk about a difficult topic, the number of seconds that they can spend sharing positivity predicts their health over the next 16 years. It predicts their likelihood of surviving over the next 30 years.
So, we're able to predict both self-reported health, but then actual death record, documented longevity, survival. So, and that matters more above and beyond the how satisfied you are with your marriage. This is an independent predictor. It's not just that happy couples have more of these and the satisfaction your marriage is what's driving it. It's really the frequency of these kinds of moments that is projecting out 30 years. I mean, we had 15 minutes of observation of how these couples interact with one another, and from that 15 minutes, we're able to predict how long people live. So, that is a paper that's just under review right now, but I'm so confident in the results that I know it'll be published somewhere. I think that it's really solid finding. So, we're extraordinarily excited about that one.
JEAN-PHILIPPE: That's fascinating. That's really fascinating. I mean, thinking about the fact you could basically project, after 15, 30 minutes of this conversation, what the next 30 years of your life are going to be from a health standpoint, it's like, wow. It's a huge deal.
BARBARA: Yeah, and the reason it works is because the way - especially with long-term married couples - the way they interact over a conflict, or the way they interact, is fairly steady, meaning I think we're capturing their typical dynamics. Now, if it was a one-time intervention that asked them to share positivity or something, and then they went back to their normal habits, we wouldn't get such a prediction. So, the only reason it works is that we're kind of listening in to their typical way of interacting, but the typical way of interacting really matters.
JEAN-PHILIPPE: Yes, it does. Well, that's really exciting news for the future, Barbara, I mean, in terms of the research. You know, one of my recent podcast guests in a French episode is Clara Gaymard, and she's a very accomplished businesswoman, author, philanthropist, and also a very happy mom of nine children, by the way. And Clara... Yeah, yeah, indeed. She did all that, and she keeps doing all of the amazing things.
And she told us about a ring her children gave her, and on the ring it says, "What would love do?" And it was quite a moment when she shared that with me. And, you know, and she was with me, actually, physically with the ring, and she would tell me, "I'm actually looking at the ring when, you know, things are not going necessarily well or exciting meetings with some people who are not necessarily projecting positive vibes to you," and she looks at a ring in French that says, "What would love do now?" I loved it.
BARBARA: Yeah. Oh, that's great. There are some really wonderful touchstone phrases that I think can help people access these mindsets that can help you switch gears. That's a beautiful one, and I'll definitely add that to my list. But I think, you know, "be positive" totally doesn't work, so don't... That's really important to discard that one right away. That gets you to that kind of fake positivity or just putting it on for show. But one that I found useful is "be open" because that allows you to get into this mindset of acceptance of and so better aligning what is actually happening with your expectations, because if you're open you kind of let go of those expectations.
And then, in really hard times, I do find that two phrases that are always true is you know, "This too shall pass," because, you know, if we're still breathing, something's going to change, you know? And if we can take action, things can change for the better. Another that's almost always true is, "You're not in it alone", that whatever darkness we have to face, others have faced it. There's nothing so unique that sets us apart from others.
And people are so interested in helping people get through tough times. I mean, it is... I think we often underestimate the generosity of people in our communities. And so, a lot of times it's just a matter of, you know, letting people know this is a tough time, and people then open up to help or share their own experiences, or even just listen to us, you know? I mean, just that listening is so, you know... Just being able to offer a listening ear to somebody is really huge.
JEAN-PHILIPPE: It is it. Hey, Barbara, I know time is moving pretty fast, but I've got a couple of more questions I'd really like to discuss with you. First, I'd like to discuss the way you've been observing and witnessing and being also an active participant of the pandemic. What I mean by that is, clearly, as you've been living through the pandemic, you, your loved ones, your partners at work and others, you know, how... I mean, have you changed your perception, your mind, your philosophy about the way you create those micro moments of love and positive resonance when you have to work from home, as an example, right, and when you have to go through some very, I would say, unnatural new habits for all of us? What are the key takeaways for you about that time and the way we're going to reflect on that?
BARBARA: Yeah. No, I think the one thing is clear. I mean, I'm so grateful that we have the technology to be able to have video teleconferencing because that has allowed me, my team of doctoral students, to keep doing what we do even though we can't go to the research laboratory or go into class and teach. So, it's been a lifesaver truly. And yet, it's very clear that it doesn't provide all the energizing uplift that you would if you were face-to-face. I feel like a day spent on video conferencing is you come away more drained than if you had those same set of meetings in person.
And I think that's your evidence that there is positivity resonance is giving something back to you. These micro moments of warm connection with people actually energize and uplift us and help us move through a long schedule in a way that, when that's absent, we're just drained. And part of that's because we can't... You know, I actually think that a telephone connection just audio may be better than audio and video, because with that, we know we're going to rely on the tone of our voice and can kind of visualize the connection. Whereas when we... because the camera on our computers is not in our irises, the eye contact is never right on video conferencing. We're kind of looking at each other, sort of like facing each other, but not really making eye contact. And our brains just don't know what to do with that. I think it can be very disconcerting, and it comes across as a disconnection, even if you know in your in your head it's not disrespect. But at an unconscious level, it's taken that way is that we're not really being attended to. So, that is a definite downside.
So, I like to, I think, even going into, like, we have an indoor mask mandate in my local community. So, when we go to campus, everybody's masked, but I feel like connections we can have, even though we're wearing masks, is better and more energizing and uplifting than if we're without masks but on video.
JEAN-PHILIPPE: Yeah. I love learning. Actually, as we emerge from the pandemic, at least, in some place in the world. I must say, it's not certainly the case around the world. So, you know, there was interesting research done, a survey done, recently by Edelman about the belief-driven employees that said that actually six out of 10 people today choose their employer based on beliefs. Basically, the reason why they work for the company and the values of the companies. So, in many ways, it's about finding ways for positivity in the work you do every day.
How do you think that the environment we've gone through as well is changing the mind, the work environment of people – kind of hybrid work, some from home, some in the office; some masks, some without masks – and how do we make connection, connecting with our colleagues, more meaningful or impactful in this new world where you've got to pick, right, the place, the way you connect with people? What would be your two cents of wisdom, Barbara, to do that better?
BARBARA: Yeah. Well, I think that, you know, going through the pandemic has awakened a lot of people to, "Why am I working? Why am I doing this work and not something that's more important or meaningful to me?" So, I think that's one reason why we're having a lot of reshuffling is because people want to have a positive impact and have a meaningful day. And so, I think we need to support that and acknowledge it and, as leaders, try to legitimize and say, "That's important that you find your work meaningful. I want to help you find the meaning in it or help you discover a path that really fits for you."
I think that the more we make work more human, meaning that we connect in a caring way to the people we work with rather than as a, "Well, you helped get this job done, so that's why you're valuable." No. We need to treat people as valuable because they're humans. And that is going to be what draws people to want to work with you because people feel seen and heard and that they matter and that their voice matters in the organization that you've created. And when people get the sense that nobody cares about what I say, you know, we're going to be continually losing, you know, resources and people when people have that experience. So, I think remembering that work is a human activity, and we need to not lose track of the humans that allow us to do great things.
JEAN-PHILIPPE: This is so true. So, let me finish with a question on leadership, Barbara, because at the end, this podcast, you know, is all about Positive Leadership. You know, we've seen a lot of different models over the years from the traditional command and control leader to the servant leader, which my guest Kevin Johnson actually, from Starbucks, talked about, as he's a strong practitioner of servant leader as an example.
Has the time come now for the era of loving leadership? I don't even know if that makes sense, I mean, from a naming standpoint, loving leadership or love leadership. Is this what we should strive for as leaders in this new era?
BARBARA: Yeah. I mean, I think you're right that maybe it needs a different name, but I think the actions and the intent fit beautifully. Like, to have a care and concern, not just for what it is that you want to accomplish together, but for the individuals and the wellbeing of everybody involved, they're not incompatible, because people want to do more when they're doing something meaningful or they're doing it in a way that allows meaningful connection with others. So, they're not at all incompatible.
And so, you know, I'm not sure, and you might be a better judge of what to name it to get it out into business leadership circles, but yes, I know a lot of people have shied away from reading Love 2.0 because they think it's about romance or, "No. We're not supposed to do that in the workplace," or the misunderstandings of what it is. But I think the way it matters in how a leader leads is that, as leaders, we need to take into consideration what we authentically feel because our genuine, authentic emotions are what are being broadcast to the whole unit or the whole organization. And if they're insincere, they're going to backfire. If they're genuine, if we have sort of like the fire in the belly motivation for good and to make a positive impact without harming the people that we're working with, when those are the guiding forces, just letting that out and letting that be evidence can feel risky. But I think that it pays off in really large and impactful ways, in ways that keep people with you.
There's some work I published some years ago on serial entrepreneurs and the positivity that they are able to share with the people who they've done one venture with. You know, if that venture fails, those same people are with you to do the next one because they found it so engaging in meaningful and kind of a feeling of togetherness. So, you know, building those relationships and loyalty. I mean, we talk a lot in business about building commitment loyalty and trust with customers, clients, or employees. And those are the products of positivity resonance. You know, those things don't come out of nowhere. They come out of having had warm, engaged moments of connection and togetherness.
JEAN-PHILIPPE: Well, thank you so much, Barbara. It has been wonderful, fascinating, insightful, and again, gives me a lot more to think about as I welcome more guests, as I try myself to be a better practitioner in my life, like all the listeners. I think your work, and all the tools as well you've been developing, are certainly very helpful for people to think about the way they can develop those micro moments of love, micro moments of positive resonance as well, in their lives. So, thank you so much for everyone for listening.
I'd like now to summarize, as a usually do, my three takeaways with you, Barbara, of our conversation. Number one, I like what you said. "Be positive" doesn't work. Be open. Number two, make a sweat equity in organizing your positive emotions one day at a time. And number three, as leaders, well, share what you, what we, authentically feel. That will be my summary. There are many other great nuggets in our conversations, Barbara, but I will leave you with that. Thank you so much, again, for being with us today, Barbara.
BARBARA: Oh, this has been a fun conversation. I really appreciate the invitation and the interest that your listeners have in these ideas. That really means a lot to me.
JEAN-PHILIPPE: Thank you, Barbara.