Engineering happiness for yourself and others (with Mo Gawdat)

Can a simple equation help you achieve happiness? Why is life about being the best gamer you can be? And why do good leaders ensure that employees bring their negative emotions to work? Listen to the episode to hear Mo Gawdat – entrepreneur, former Google X exec and author of ‘Solve for Happy’ – answer all these questions and more.

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Transcript

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JP: Hello everyone, and welcome back to the Positive Leadership podcast. I'm so excited to share this episode with you. I recently spoke to my friend Mo Gawdat. Mo had a long career in tech. He has worked at Microsoft. He was also the former Chief Business Officer of Google X. He's an entrepreneur as well, but he has dedicated his career to the wonderful subject of happiness. And of course, happiness is an important part of positive leadership, both your personal happiness, but also your team's happiness. So Mo and I had a great discussion about a few things. Well, first of all, what is the equation of happiness? What are the practical ways to manage your own happiness, to the responsibilities you have as a leader to define happiness and shape a personal mission? And Mo shared some amazing stories, so I just can't wait for you to hear them now. 

Hello Mo and welcome. A very warm welcome, Mo. It's great to speak to you again, right, after your time at Microsoft more than 15 years ago. And in full disclosure to our listeners, you know, the reason why we reconnect again today and actually really after a couple months ago, again, is because of actually my daughter, my daughter, Aurore. Two years back, she attended one of your conferences, and at the end of your speech. I know she came to you, she spoke with you. And she called me right after that. She said Dad - she was very moved - she said Dad, I met with someone I think you may know, and he's talking about something that clearly deeply resonates with me, and I'm sure with you and she said it's Mo, and it's about his son Ali and it’s about Solve for Happy. And of course, I read your book, Mo, and I got to learn a lot about clearly your own path to happiness. And it's a pleasure for me really, to have you on this podcast. And ask you clearly a few questions about that path and your own search for happiness. You know, clearly, I mean, happiness seems simple, but it's very hard. And I try myself to read a lot of books to get more intelligence on happiness and positivity overall. And there's a book from these psychologies, Barbara Fredrickson, she's a PhD, she's been writing a few books, maybe you've read some of them, Mo, and basically, in a way she avoids the term happy because she thinks of use and basically you know, she thinks that basically happiness is more the outcome of many positive moments. 

So let me ask you the first question, which is, what is your own definition of happiness? Not as opposed, but as some other words that we may use, like joy, like gratitude, like love, like, you know, serenity, many other dimensions. 

MO GAWDAT: Yeah, like fun, pleasure, party, which are all replacements of happiness.  First of all, thank you so much for having me. I remember vividly the time when I spoke to Aurore and, you know, wonderful, intelligent young woman. And she came to me and said, you have to talk to Dad again. And I was like, yeah, we haven't spoken in a few years, it was again, and such a pleasure that we reconnected, and we've been in touch many times in the last couple of years. I love that. So thanks to her. 

The definition of happiness actually was the biggest, biggest struggle I was facing when I was searching for my own happiness. In my mind, I am an engineer. Right? So to me, if you don't give me a definition of the product we're looking for, how can I even find it? How can I build it? Happiness could be right there under my left foot, and I can't see it, because I don't know what it is. And so at the time, I did what sounded crazy at the time, but worked, which was, I started to make a definition for happiness like an engineer would. I basically put on, if you want, my white lab coat, and I said, okay, what does an engineer do when there is something, when you give me a machine, and I don't know I don't know how it works, but I try to understand the machine? What do I do? I reverse engineer it. I take as many readings as I want of how that machine works, right? And I basically try to find the trend line, some kind of smooth curve, an equation if you want, that describes what the performance of that machine. And so I did that with happiness. I simply told myself, look, I wasn't always unhappy. At the time I was in my late 20s, early 30s, I was extremely, almost clinically depressed. And I said, I wasn't always like that. In my younger 20s, I was a very happy young man. And I started to take note of every moment in my life where I felt happy. Okay, I quickly ran, the exercise came up, I remember vividly with 92 points at the time, and started to find a common, you know, ground to all of them, something that's common among them. And it might come as you know, as silly, but actually, there is one thing that defines every moment in your life where you ever felt happy. And, and that thing is that it wasn't about the event itself. Sometimes rain makes you happy if you want to water your plants. And sometimes it makes you unhappy, if you want to sit in the sun. Rain, itself as an event doesn't make you happy or unhappy. It's a comparison, okay? In every moment in your life, it's a comparison between what you want life to be and what life actually gives you. And you run that comparison, and life falls short, you feel unhappy. If you run that comparison, and life actually meets your expectations, you feel happy. So in that definition, what is happiness? Happiness is that moment, when you're contented, when you're peaceful, when you're okay with life as it is. When you're not rejecting life, but accepting it as it is.

JP: So what is really hard, I find myself, Mo, anyway, I find it hard both as a person right, as a dad, but also as well as a leader, as a manager, is the way I manage my own expectations. Because in many ways, expectation setting is a big deal for yourself and for every other person. We will talk a little about management, but just how do you think about that expectation management?

MO GAWDAT:  So it's interesting because we're very complex beings, and we have multiple targets in life. One of them is to be successful, is to persevere, is to find our purpose, is to make a difference to life, right. And you can't do that unless you set big expectations, right? You set big goals, big targets. Without those, you're not going to stretch yourself to the best that you can be. But also, we're human. We want to be happy, we want to be contented, we want to be loved, we want to be loving, we want to have all of those experiences, which in all honesty, contradict the first target, right? And so, I came to a very simple differentiation that made it super clear for me. I differentiate between ambitions, targets, if you want your expectations, okay. Expectations to me need to be realistic and ambitions need to be as high as the sky. Okay. And by differentiating those two, you suddenly are able as a person to shoot for the stars, okay. But to know that achieving just the stratosphere is actually a major achievement. And I think about it in my own personal story. When I wrote Solve for Happy, I wrote it because I sort of felt that my son wanted me to share what he taught me about happiness. And at the time, I gave myself what I thought was an ambitious target, it was called #10MillionHappy at the time. I wanted his message to reach 10 million people. And I thought in my mind, that you know, through six degrees of separation, 100 years later, part of his essence will be everywhere and part of everyone as he dreamed to be. Now 10 million happy happened within six weeks. Like literally within six weeks, we had 120 million views on our content, more than 10 million actions for sure. Okay. And so suddenly, the team came together and said, maybe we should increase the targets. And so, you know, sandbagging as salespeople always do, I apologise. Right? But you know, but I didn't expect that. And so we increased the target. We made it 1 billion happy, so the mission now is 1 billion happy. Now, you and I know Jean-Philippe, I'm never going to reach a billion people.

JP: You will eventually.

MO GAWDAT: It took Jesus 2000 years to reach a billion people. Right. But it happens through people. It happens through others, so a mission, an ideology, a concept takes others, takes champions, to build. Okay, so what would happen if I, on my deathbed, found we've reached 300 million, would I kill myself and call myself a failure? No, the ambition is wonderful. The ambition is a billion happy, right? But the expectation is, I'm going to do the absolute best I can for our listeners today to be happy. And that's as far as my impact can reach and if I meet that expectation, I'm very, very happy but I continue to shoot for the ambition so that I can make a difference.

JP: No, I love it. I love the fact you talk about the north star. Each one of us should have a north star that is bold ambition. But yeah Mo I need to pursue the data with you and get from you some wisdom or some tips as well. I want our listeners to have some practical ways to think about the way they should daily manage that equation you talked about, which is the way you are basically planning your days, with planned events and unplanned events, these moments of joy and very tough moments as well coming your way. How do you deal with that on a day-to-day basis?

MO GAWDAT: I have to say, when you said pursue the data, I remembered media reviews and I was like, oh, no, no, no, no. I'm not prepared for this. 

JP:  For listeners, this is a Microsoft legend, talking about the business reviews we used to do. 

MO GAWDAT: Exactly. What Jean-Philippe would ask about every single number, you know, that ever happened in your market since the last 200 years and remember all of them surprisingly, anyway. So happiness is… Let's agree to start with the definition. So as we said, it's events meet expectations, which we agree it can be put in a simple equation. Your happiness is equal to or greater than the difference between the events of your life and your expectations of how life should be. So with a mathematical equation, it's events minus expectations, right? The truth is, you can become happier if you set the expectations to be realistic, and see the events for what they are. Okay, it's as simple as that. Many, many times in life, we think that the event is coming short. But the truth is the event is amazing. And many, many times in life, we think that the event, which is still amazing is missing expectations, but that's only because the expectation is in place. So it's only a matter of tuning those two. And all of that happens inside your head. Okay, it doesn't happen outside in the world, all of that calculation is inside your head, which basically means the number one target to happiness or path to happiness, is to actually regulate your thoughts. It’s to be able to take control of that wild whirlpool happening inside your head and really, really get it down to reality. And because we come from a technology background, I don't share that often, but I actually will say I follow what I call a happiness flow chart. Okay. And the happiness flow chart is very straightforward for me. You feel an emotion, you feel a negative emotion, okay? Number one task you have to do is to acknowledge the emotion. As a matter of fact, you need to embrace the emotion, you need to say, Oh my god, I am angry. Oh, where did that come from? Right? Most of us have been trained in the modern world to hide those emotions, to suppress them, to even tell ourselves that they don't exist, because we don't want to show them to the rest of the world.

JP: What is the best way to acknowledge this?

MO GAWDAT:  To realize the truth, Jean-Philippe, we, every human being, including you, who sometimes was a tough leader for us. You know, anyone knows that you're human, you love your children, you want to do the right thing by the company. Everyone has those emotions. It's just that the modern world told us, no, they're not supposed to show, and so we thought that they don't exist. But they're the only moments in life we feel alive. I mean, imagine waking up one morning and all you have is thoughts, no feelings, no sensations, no emotions, you're not feeling alive. You're not feeling human. Now, the beauty of it is, every emotion is true. People forget that. If you feel angry, yes, you may not have a reason to be angry, maybe you're exaggerating, maybe you didn't see the event correctly. But if you feel angry, it's true. You feel angry, it's the truth. Okay, you shouldn't hide that. And what I do is I say, by embracing the emotion, okay, that's the first moment I can actually do something about it. You know, unless I embrace it, it will linger and eat me up from inside. And it's not a wise thing to do. Like business leaders, what did we do when the market changed? We looked at it and said, man, that's going to be tough. You know, it's annoying after all of the work we've done with that CEO that the CEO changed or whatever. But all business, all successful business leaders said two minutes later, okay, so what are we going to do now? Right, which truly is the rest of the flowchart. 

Acknowledge your emotion and then there are three questions that will always get you back to happiness. Question number one is, is it true? It's not if the emotion is true, but is the trigger of that emotion true? Is the thought that's making me feel angry, is it true? Okay? The example I always give is, Aya, my daughter and I, we love each other so deeply. We're best friends. Okay? And, Aya sometimes has an argument with me. We’re two different generations, we see the world slightly differently. And so when she has an argument with me, I remember vividly one day I was visiting her in Montreal, she had an argument with me, and I said, okay, baby, I'm going to go out have a coffee, cool down and then we can discuss this, right? And the minute I walk out of the door, my brain says, Aya doesn't love you anymore. Where did you get that? From? Like, what, what? What evidence do you have of this? She just texted me yesterday to say come in the morning, I miss you. We'll have breakfast together. That shows that she loves me. Now. If I go up my WhatsApp chat, there are hugs and kisses and we always have a wonderful time here. Where did you come up with that, brain? And so often what's making us unhappy is actually not even real. And so if it's not true, if the answer to the question is no, drop it. Don't be unhappy about it. Yeah. If the answer to the question is yes, go further in the flow chart. Okay. And do what every business leader, every entrepreneur has ever done. Ask the question, what can I do about it? What can I do about it? If you know if your partner says something hurtful on Friday, okay, and it actually is very hurtful and it is true, what can you do about it? Text them, say, hey, baby, what you said on Friday hurt me, can we talk about this over dinner? Okay? Or ask yourself if this is the right partner, or, you know, maybe you need to set some rules or whatever, okay. But do something about it. Yeah, if you do something about it, second step of the flowchart. You're first going to make the world better. And second, by engaging in action, the unhappiness goes away. 

What, however, if there is nothing you can do about it? You are now ignoble. We both know this, right? I lost my son, you lost your son, and there is no way you can bring them back. I could hit my head against the wall for 27 years, it's not coming back. On my deathbed, he will still not be here. Right? So what if you cannot do anything about it? That's the last step of the of the flowchart. And the last step is very straightforward. I call it committed acceptance. It's acceptance that the baseline of your life has changed, not out of weakness, but out of strength. 

Again, like you and I, as business people in our market downtime, we don't complain about the world, we simply say it is the reality, we accept it. But the commitment bit is what's unique. The commitment is, and while we accept it, we're not going to sit down and die, we're going to actually take action to make life better, despite that new baseline. As a matter of fact, sometimes because of that new baseline. And so I went out and I wrote Solve for Happy and I spread the message to the world. Yes, it doesn't bring Ali back. But at least it makes the world better after he left.

JP: Thanks for highlighting that experience you had Mo in the first place and where you try to experience it every day, I guess, to go through this flow, and make it real because all of us have to experience that differently. As we think about the business world, I mean, you are obviously someone who's been leading teams at Google X, Microsoft, and you're an entrepreneur as well. How should we think as leaders about managing or shaping happiness for team members? Does it make any sense in the first place? I'm not talking about buying them sushi and giving them massages, right? I'm talking about truly creating some repeated moments of positive energy, of joy, of fulfilment, where people love to get together to go and solve hard problems, and a tough discussion as well, because business life is also sometimes not easy, and being able to bounce back and do great things together. So how do you apply that philosophy, I would say, to the business world?

MO GAWDAT:  It applies firmly, it's actually the wisest thing you can do. I mean, in a very interesting way, I think everything starts with intention and as a leader unless you see the value of happiness for your team, not employee satisfaction, these are two very different things. Happiness is that, as we defined it, is that the team is okay with life as it is, that the team could be working nine hours a day, or 12 hour days sometimes during the high season or you know, a customer deal or whatever, but they are happy about it. They’re content that this is the right thing to do. They feel positive, they feel motivated to do it. And when you really think about it, Jean-Philippe, it's not because the leader is a nice person, it's the wisest business decision ever. Why? Because happy people are more engaged, they're nicer to their clients, so their clients love them, they share more with them, they meet them more often, they allow them to come for meetings. They're nicer with their colleagues, to their colleagues help them out, and there is no friction in the office, there is no wasted time on conflict, you know. They have less absence, they don't cost the company in terms of mental health costs, and so on. They're all around and they stick around, by the way.

JP: They’re more engaged, yeah.

MO GAWDAT: And they stick around, so you don't have to hire a new person every year and a half, because they're unhappy. Now, that's a very wise thing to do. If you do the math of it, it's the wisest thing you can do. Now, when you get that clear, I always say to leaders, there are two pieces of advice. Okay. The first one is attend to yourself first before you help others, right? Remember, when we used to fly around the world, and they tell you that when you get on an airplane, you can never help anyone become happy, if you're grumpy yourself. It just doesn't work. Okay. And so there isn't a need for an acknowledgement to say to yourself, look, I am very stressed by my work, I carry so many targets, I need to work on me. Okay. And I need to find ways to be able to be vulnerable sometimes, to be open with my team sometimes, to share openly sometimes. I need to find my own happiness. Okay. And when the leader, you know, is on a path to finding happiness, the whole team follows. Just like when the leader is on a path to create a billion dollar company, the whole company follows. Okay, if the leader is on a path to create a billion dollar happy company, right, that team will follow. 

JP: I can feel clearly that propagation, I would say, of that happiness from the leader to the team, Mo, but sometimes people have had moments in their lives, your employees, team members, and so how far do you go, where do you draw the line, right, in terms of opening the personal life in the professional life? I know myself, you know, for years, I was a very traditional manager leader, I'd say, hey, those are two separate worlds, the private life and the professional life. And I came to realize, year after year, that, hey, we're all humans, we all have emotions, and we reconcile those dimensions every day and everything we do. So how do you deal with that when people have to struggle personally?

MO GAWDAT:  Yeah, I actually have been put into that firmly, because I have two lives, really. So I'm the CEO of my startup, which is very, very intensely technological, very, very demanding of my time, but at the same time, I have my life as a podcast host, you know, as an author, as a speaker, and so on, on the topics of happiness. So to me, I have those two lives, and they live in the same calendar. Okay, so our conversation right now, my entire team in my companies can see in my calendar that I am going to be on the Positive Leadership podcast now. The point here is to change a few terminologies that business told us wrong. It's the industrial revolution that told us separate life from work, while reality is, wise business people realize that it's one person, okay. It’s just one human. And it's so interesting, because, you know, words like vulnerability are not welcome at work. But that's actually not true. The word that is not welcome, is weakness to the point that will, you know, jeopardize success, but vulnerability is actually preventing that weakness from getting there. If you go out there and say, hey, by the way, I'm not feeling great today. It's better maybe if I take a few hours off, that's better than coming to work and destroying everything. Right? You know, there are there are words like - and I say that honestly - there are words like love, which we prevent from work. I absolutely love dearly everyone I've worked with, including you. Right? You were always a tough leader. But I could also always see through your, you know, your pushing us to get to do better. I could always see the human that came to me when I was in the Paris office and said, hey, by the way, I really think you're doing well. Okay. And that balance between those two creates those emotions in us whether you're angry with one of your colleagues, whether you know, you really like them, whether you think they're funny. And what's the point in hiding all of that if it's not hurting anyone. By the way, when we spoke about emotions, emotions in themselves don't hurt anyone. I interviewed on Slow Mo on my podcast, I interviewed Arun Gandhi, the grandson of Gandhi. And he wrote a book that's called The Gift of Anger. And I said, what are you talking about, Arun? And he said, anger is an energy, okay? You can use it to punch someone in the face, or you can use it to, you know, to sound an alarm and say something needs to change. Okay? And it's wonderful to use it. So can we bring those things to work? Can we tell people, it's okay to be human, but the deal between us, okay, is that we're going to always work to make it better for our success as a business. It's okay to feel worried, but don't feel worried and hide it and talk about it in the corridors. Feel worried and come and talk to me. Okay, so I am aware that you are worried, so I can try to do something about it. And when you talk to me, it's okay to sometimes hide some confidential information from you. But can you please not mask it up and sugarcoat it. Tell me openly as a manager, or a leader, tell me openly, I can't tell you this bit yet. Okay. And imagine if our work is like that. Most people who don't like their jobs, it's not because the job is hard. It's because they're unhappy.

JP: Yes. I certainly follow your guidance, Mo and, you know, my own conviction is that we all can generate, in a way, our own positive energy if we get on top of our mind, of our little voice, as you call it, right. And I am feeling that myself, you know, when I'm really getting a lot more in control, and managing in a positive way, my emotion, my physical wellness, my mental wellness, and be in position to propagate that to people I'm working with every day. So opening conversation with a smile, but not just a smile for the sake of a smile, but really, with the intention of listening deeply, propagating some positive vibes, and trying to establish a climate of trust and confidence, but also of positivity. So what do you think about that flow of energy, of positive energy, versus negative energy, coming back to this book from Fredrickson. She had another equation herself. She said, you know what, you need to actually have three times more positive energy moments, moments of positivity, versus moments of negativity. In other words, negativity really hurts really bad. You need to manage three times more those moments with your people, family, or professionals. So what do you think about that positive energy and the way you manage it yourself?

MO GAWDAT:  This is absolute science. So we are wired as humans for survival. When your amygdala gets triggered because there is something negative around you, that entire cycle, from the amygdala all the way to your adrenal glands, where you get cortisol and adrenaline and you enter a fight or flight mode, and then you have to do the negative feedback loop. This is very complex and very lengthy, even though it does take only nine seconds per cycle, but we're able to regenerate it over and over and over and, and obsess about one topic, that we can go about, you know, and feel threatened about for years. So one bit of negativity really lasts, okay. But I also think that there are certain positive emotions that are much more wholesome, let's say, than others, right? So laughter, love, trust. Those moments where you connect deeply to a human, you know, and believe it or not, there are different types of leaders out there. But I spent most of my senior years as a leader in Google X, with no job, other than connecting deeply to my team. That's all I did, okay. Because in my mind, I was no longer the individual contributor, I was no longer even the manager, okay, I was finally the leader. As the leader, you don't even have to manage the spreadsheet yourself or manage the forecast yourself. All you need to do is to make sure that this person responsible for whatever task, writing a line of code or delivering a billion dollars, that they are empowered and enabled and trusting and so on, and in all honesty, how do you do that? How do you do that other than actually finding the positive emotions? Okay, and I will tell you a story. And I will omit the name because it's not right to say the name, but I had the country manager in my early years at Google. In my first seven years, I opened half of Google's offices worldwide. So I was expanding across emerging markets. And I had a country manager that came to me the first time we met with a horrible business plan, like it was a disgrace. It was really, really bad. Okay. And, and I love people, but it was so bad that around 20 minutes into the conversation, I said, would you please go back and rework on this because it's really, really off target, okay. Not in a horrible way, but you know, in a kind way. And then he came back around six weeks later. And in my mind, I was like, this is going to be horrible. It's going to be ugly, it's going to be a waste of one hour of my time. And eventually, I think I'm just going to be upset again. And so I walked in with the exact wrong emotion and exact wrong energy, if you want. Five minutes into the meeting, and you know, if anyone ever speaks to him, he will remember that. Five minutes into the meeting, I said, can I please be excused for five minutes, I need to do something. Okay. Because I actually recognized that he was talking a lot of sense. And I was very negative, okay. And I walked outside, and I told myself, look, he's a wonderful human being. He’s trying to do the absolute best that he can. And unless you'll stop judging, before you see the data, okay, you're doing him and yourself a disfavor. And I just calmed down, thought positively about wonderful things, and walked back into the meeting. Best business plan I have ever been presented. Right. Ever. And I will tell you, and he became massively successful in the company, by the way. And it's amazing, when you really, as a leader, tell yourself, hold on, he's a wonderful person trying the absolute best that he can. And by the way, if the best that he can do is not good enough, that's because of a match to the job, find him another job, and anyone that's trying to do the best that he can will do amazing.

JP: Now that's a great example, Mo. And I would say I had myself a number of such experiences and working really not just in my mind, on my words, your thoughts and your words, to make sure I was picking the right worlds to give the right nudge, motivation, excitement to the person in front of me, in some cases, when the sketch was not that easy, actually, yeah, and find ways to bounce back and get the energy back to the person, so that the person could be confident and proud actually of coming back to me with some wonderful work a few weeks, months, or even year after and I've seen a few of those amazing, I would say, turnaround situations, where people, because the confidence you've been, you know, projecting to themselves, made the difference.

MO GAWDAT:  They need to feel that you're not against them, that you're for them and for the company at the same time. Okay. And it's a simple ending equation, you're simply telling them, look, we both agree the company needs to succeed. And I want you to succeed. So how can we make that happen? How can we make both happen? And once that trust is established we’re in a very good place. It's not a tough conversation.

JP: No, it's not. So, Mo, I’d like to kind of connect the dots, because I'm a strong believer, and I think you are as well. Having tried to have a positive impact on the world, I mean, whether it is a billion people for you, which is mind blowing, I mean, or for me, just a few hundreds of thousands of social entrepreneurs with the Live for Good Foundation, you’ve got your own One Billion Happy movement. I do believe that actually being able to project that north star with others and really have this purpose mindset, where you basically, you know, basically really defined some of this bold ambition, as you said, and find every day the opportunities to get there step by step, even if you never get to the billion, as you said, it’s so critical. So how do you think about and how would you advise listeners to shed their own kind of, you know, billions or wherever that means for every one listening to us, what is your one billion? 

MO GAWDAT: I find it interesting because without a purpose, life becomes very stale. Right? It's just… It doesn't mean anything. Men Search for Meaning - if anyone hasn't read that you have to read this. But also the definition of purpose in our western world is a little bit blurred, right? Because in the western world, we tend to productize everything we do. We tend to turn everything into something that you go and attain. Right? And so I remember vividly, there was a moment in my life where I told myself my purpose is to help startups build technologies that are equivalent to Google out of emerging markets. And I was like, where did that come from? You know, in reality, it ended up that my purpose was One Billion Happy. Okay. Now, the interesting thing is this. So I used to play a lot of games with Ali. I'm a very serious video gamer. Thanks to the Xbox I'm in the top, I'm like in the very, very top of the players in the world at Halo, right. I'm daring everyone listening here, by the way. But anyway, so because I played a lot of video games with Ali, when I used to play with Ali, Ali he was legendary. Okay. I was, you know, I played difficult or heroic at best and Ali taught me so much about life through video games. And I remember vividly, when we would start the game, Jean-Philippe, I would turn to the right, and rush to the end of the level, okay. And Ali would literally put his controller down and say, what are you doing, Papa, and I'm like, the end of the level is here, we have to finish the level. And he goes, who wants to finish the level we're playing? We're playing it. We're here in this incredible experience together to actually enjoy it and live it. And I said, but isn't our target to finish the level and he said, no, your target is to become the best gamer you can become. And that's such a profound statement. And your purpose in life is very straightforward. It's to become the best gamer you can become. Okay? That doesn't mean you finish the level, that doesn't mean you'll increase the score, it basically means you engage in life positively and learn, okay. And when Ali would play, he would go to the most difficult parts of the game, the parts where there are explosions and smoke. And I would go like, why are you there Ali? Why are you going to the most difficult part, and he says, this is where all the fun is and this is where you become a better gamer. This is where you develop and grow. Now, when you really think about this, think about my story, your story. We go through life engaging positively every day. Sometimes you get knocked out and you get up again, and other times you're making progress, but you're positively engaging, becoming the best player you can become every single day, every shot. And eventually, your purpose finds you. It's not the other way around. Okay? If you're not qualified, if you're not qualified, you'd be doing your purpose a disfavor by setting it as a target. Okay, so many people out there who want to be coaches, okay. And they have coaching practices, and they have clients, but they haven't achieved their own state of happiness yet. Okay? Yes, you're helping, but you're also unhealthy. And maybe you should spend more time developing your own self, developing, as I said, attend to yourself first before you help others. So when it comes to purpose, my only advice to people is, don't judge it, don't pre-pick it. It's not a consumable product, okay? Don't define it as a target, because when you define it as a target, I am going to put, you know, give a computer to every human on earth, okay. Which you know, for remember laptop for every child, you know that initiative?

JP: Oh, yeah, I do.  

MO GAWDAT:  What happens is, when you have that objective, you spend your entire life waiting for it to happen, and then when it happens, you're so empty, it's like, okay, that's it, what do I do now? Okay, middle age crisis at its best. And I think the answer is very straightforward. The answer is engage every day, do the best that you can every day, and you will get many, many purposes. Okay? And major purposes, showing up when they show up, attend to them fully, and be flexible, continue to engage and the purpose will change. Right? And that's the way to live a fulfilled life.

JP: I love it, Mo. It's so true and there’s so much day-to-day, I would say again, growth of yourself. I mean, I see me, I see us growing through those steps. Let me finish a couple of the last questions, Mo. I’d like you to share if you can some of the best, basically your happiest moments that you had in your life or your career. As you said we have one life and what was that? And when you look back and realize what it was, what was the reason for that moment of happiness?

MO GAWDAT: I'm constantly happy. I think it's a brain defect. But if you… Actually no it's not a brain defect, it's brain training over many, many, many years, I should be very clear about that. I, you know, there are many moments that stand out, but I remember vividly, I think it was November 2018, I was on stage speaking in a conference called Wisdom in Business in the Netherlands. And I cried so hard, like I wept on the stage, okay. Because it hit me so hard that, of course, you know, Aya and Ali were the love of my life. And, Aya, of course, still is the love of my life. But when Ali left, he left a very big gap in my heart, okay. He wasn't just my son, he was my best friend. As you can see, he was my coach on many topics. And there was that, you know, longing for that hug if you want, okay. And then on that stage, because I spent the hour before my talk, you know, mingling with people, and my book has been very successful here in the Netherlands, I felt an overwhelming amount of love. Okay, I felt that everyone in that 2,000 people in the audience, every one of them was pouring love on me. Okay. And it just hit me on stage when I was asked this question by the moderator - what makes you very happy? It hit me so hard that if God or life, if you want, took away the love of Ali and replaced it with so much love, okay. And so much love was not the result of me being a pop star, or, you know, singing an amazing number one hit. It was simply because I could manage to make a few more people happy in the world. You can't understand how many people are just longing for that feeling and it's so elusive for them. And when they get some clarity, it just makes a difference. Right? And so if you ask me, what is the thing that makes you happiest? I would say it's to make others happy. Okay. And I know it sounds cliche, but it is so true. Okay. It's just, you meet one person. I mean, honestly, Jean-Philippe, all the blessings that you gave me when I worked for you, all of the teachings, all of the learnings, to know that my book made a difference for you. Okay? That's an incredible joy. It's an incredible feeling of like, oh my God, my life was worth it. Okay. And so I ask people to think about that, to think about the idea of, maybe life is not just about me, maybe life is about making others experience life in a positive way. And me being a part of that pack, if you want, part of that gang, if you want. And I think that truly brings the most positive moments in life.

JP: Your story really cannot resonate more with me, Mo. I have the same feeling myself. Because I created Live for Good five years ago. The name, by the way, came from my son Gabriel, and he wrote me a note a few years back when he was 18 years old saying, Dad I have this vital desire to change other people’s lives positively. And those few words, that voice, is in my heart, in my mind all the time. And so when I’m in a situation like I was a few weeks back to award some entrepreneurs coming from all walks of life, to enable them to make a positive impact by creating a social enterprise that can really change the world, step by step, one street at a time, one person at a time, one problem at a time, it gives me that moment of joy and fulfilment in a huge way, so what you just shared with me is something meaningful. 

MO GAWDAT:  It’s the truth. And I would say, people shouldn’t think of this as, oh this is Jean-Philippe and this is Mo and they’ve had their career and their… No, you change the life of a barista when you order a coffee. You can change the life of your sister by just sending her a kind message. Okay? And again, as Ali taught me about purpose, all you need to do is to engage. And if you positively tell yourself, I’ll just change the life of one person today, life will send you two tomorrow, and for the next day. Right? All you really need to do is to engage and to continue to make a difference. 

JP: I think we’re going to end with those wonderful words of encouragement to all of our listeners, Mo, and to all of us, to go after this equation of happiness in our lives. Let me share with you maybe my three takeaways listening to you again today. First is about turning to yourself. I think it starts with that. Second it really about the way you define your bold ambition when managing your own expectations in life. And the third, Mo, which I love, is, your purpose is to become the best gamer. Whatever game you want to play. You have chosen your own games, Mo. Obviously you have chosen mine as well. Each one of us needs to become the best gamer that we’ve picked in our lives. And with that, I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for giving me again a great moment of happiness together, and I’m sure that many of the listeners will follow up with reading your books, checking on your many many, many YouTube videos and many, many moments that you have the pleasure to be ones of those billion people happy in the future of the world. So thank you so much Mo, and looking forward to seeing you in person soon enough.

MO GAWDAT:  Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you so much, Jean-Philippe. It’s always a pleasure. And thank you so much for what you are doing. And thanks everyone for listening. 

JP: I had a great time discussing happiness with Mo, and I hope you had a great time listening as well. I encourage every one of you to take time to think about happiness today. What does it mean actually for you? How can you make it real in your life? And how can you help others find it? Thank you so much for joining me today and tune in next time for a very special episode where we’ll be talking to Microsoft’s own CEO and President, Satya Nadella. Speak to you then.